tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-172417803867627775.post633317608603217556..comments2023-05-18T03:50:23.681-07:00Comments on The Center for Theological Studies: Eternal Security and Its Implications For A Theology of History, Pt. XIV-D: The Genuineness of the Evidence-of-Genuineness ProposalByronhttp://www.blogger.com/profile/11537490279115937176noreply@blogger.comBlogger3125tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-172417803867627775.post-49039380265556025122010-10-22T09:35:11.003-07:002010-10-22T09:35:11.003-07:00Dr. Lemke,
Regarding 1 John 2:19...
I've d...Dr. Lemke,<br /><br /> Regarding 1 John 2:19...<br /><br /> I've done some work on this verse, but I will post the summary of my work here.<br /><br /> 1 John 2:19 is often a passage used against those who fall away...the problem with this verse, however, is that it does not take context into account. Who are those who leave the congregation, in 1 John 2? The "antichrists" (1 Jn. 2:18), those who deny both God and Christ (1 Jn. 2:22). Verse 26 tell us specifically who these "antichrists" are in the congregation--- "those who try to deceive" them (v.26). It is written about the deceivers. The deceivers who left were never of the congregation.<br /><br /> In verse 27, however, John validates the salvation of all the congregation when he writes, "the anointing which you have received from Him abides in you..." However, John still tells the congregation "abide in Him" (v.28) so that "when He appears, we may have confidence and not be ashamed before Him at His coming" (v.28). Why be ashamed of Him? because by turning away from the truth, their hearts would condemn them (1 Jn. 3:18-21). <br /><br /> Although the congregation has been plagued with the deceivers, this does not mean that they are eternally guaranteed. Rather, they are to continue in the truth so that they will not be condemned...since, if their hearts condemn them, God would do so all the more (1 Jn. 3:18-21).Deidre Richardson, B.A., M.Div.https://www.blogger.com/profile/04415891901162852180noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-172417803867627775.post-15065575201967034132010-10-22T09:20:49.816-07:002010-10-22T09:20:49.816-07:00Dr. Lemke,
About the points you raise...
I nev...Dr. Lemke,<br /><br /> About the points you raise...<br /><br /> I never stated in the post that Matthew 7 refers to the "saved." What I tried do was point out the ambiguity concerning the saved and the unsaved: if evidence is what we're looking for to determine authenticity, and fake believers can duplicate evidence as well as true believers, then what separates them? How do you and I even know we're saved?<br /><br /> Now...in Dr. Keathley's system, the elect are unconditionally elected...and the fruits themselves "necessarily" (the word he uses) manifest themselves in a true believer's life. The problem with his system is that it is faulty to say that "God picks whom He pleases"...and then, turn around, and, when someone falls away, say, "They were never saved...they weren't genuine." If genuineness is a true test of faith, then how can one be unconditionally elected (i.e., without regard to anything within the person)? I hold to Peter's words to the scattered believers in his letter when he says, "therefore, brethren, be even more diligent to make your call and election sure, for if you do these things you will never stumble" (2 Peter 1:10; cf. 1:11).<br /><br /> The saved, if elected by God without regard to anything within themselves, cannot fall in the Molinist system. But what about those who fall? You have yet to engage me regarding the fact that Molinism holds to the Calvinist notion of election...which means that, should someone fall away, God never saved them (He never chose them for salvation). How can this be explained away? Evidence is present in the lives of the unconditionally elect...but what about those who don't bear fruit? And how do we escape the idea that WE may not be saved? What about if you are not one of the unconditionally elect?<br /><br /> If God saves us according to His own picking and choosing, how can we know in this life who is saved? We can't...and even though you could say, "Well, I do these certain things, like attend worship, Bible study, business meetings, missions trips, tithing, go to seminary," etc...such things do not place the believer above the unbeliever, if Matthew 7 is true (which I agree it is).<br /><br /> How can we separate the sheep from the goat, or the wheat from the tare? The point of Matthew 13 was to say that even Jesus believed in the development of the Christian, such that we can't rule a person out bc at the moment, he or she seems to be an unbeliever. Rather, the end will reveal all things...and until then, regarding judgment and personal evaluations of unbelievers, we must look to the Lord and remain cautious about such judgments.Deidre Richardson, B.A., M.Div.https://www.blogger.com/profile/04415891901162852180noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-172417803867627775.post-29986474835225947742010-10-22T07:29:17.202-07:002010-10-22T07:29:17.202-07:00On behalf of Keathley . . .
You raise some import...On behalf of Keathley . . .<br /><br />You raise some important questions about the "evidence of genuineness" position, Deidre. Although I'm not committed to that position, I would like to suggest a couple of counterpoints in favor of Keathley's position for you to consider.<br /><br />First, I do think we have clear evidence in Scripture that there are miracles by charlatans for their own reasons (perhaps the love of power, for example). The Matthew 7 passage is not the only Scripture that teaches that not every miracle is from God, even those which purport to be. Pharaoh's sorcerers were able to duplicate Moses' staff-to-snake miracle. Deut. 13 (especially vvs. 1-2) lays down the criteria for a false miracle, which in fact the text says it is God who is enabling the miracle. Simon the Sorcerer attempted to find such a "bag of tricks" to use the name of Christ to exert power (Acts 8:9-25). The Apostle Paul warned that even a miraculous appearance of angels did not guarantee the truthfulness of their message (Gal. 1:6-10). Matt. 24:24 warns against misleading miracles by others pretending to be sent by God. 2 Thess. 2:9 also predicts counterfeit miracles. <br /><br />Second, surely you're not missing the fact that Jesus said, "Depart from me, you workers of iniquity, I NEVER knew you." It's not that Jesus knew them and then forgot them. He NEVER knew them. That indicates rather clearly that these people were never genuinely saved.<br /><br />Third, I would just acknowledge that the evidence of genuineness is <i>just that and nothing more</i>. It is evidence, not proof. It is the nature of deception to be . . . deceived! So as Matthew 7 indicates, some people are going to think they are saved when in fact they are lost. The parable of the weeds in Matt. 13:24-30 says that the weeds grow among the wheat (planted by Satan), and will remain there until the harvest (i.e., second coming). So the false believers will be with us always. Only when their doctrinal aberration becomes evident do they go out from us, but they were never one of us (1 John 2:19).<br /><br />I hope you'll consider these points in framing your views.Steve Lemkehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/06892853747098200144noreply@blogger.com